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Walrus

Primer/Paint lifting

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Okay I give up.
What's the secret?  

The annoying problem of tape lifting paint and primer and varnish has been pizzling me off for a few years.  
I never used to have this problem so consistently even with acrylics, but it is stopping me completing models because I am worried that the paint will lift and it is a pain to sort out.

As has proven yet again
Have washed the plastic, have wiped down with alcohol, wait 24 hours+ for coats to cure but nothing seems to work.

Possible causes.  Cold and damp?  Have moved my spray gun up into the kitchen and that didn't help
The tape I bought from my LHS being too tacky?  I put it n the back of my hand to reduce the tackiness, but when I tested it, the primer still lifted.


Have used rattle can primers, Vallejo Primer, and now Styrnex Primer, all with the same result

The only thing I can think of is that I have applied the first primer coat too thickly 
Have sprayed the underside of a Hurri with a much thinner layer, which is now curing so will have to see how that goes.


 

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That is an interesting problem. I use Halfords grey and white primers and have never had paint lift - even on an unwashed model. It sounds like a process issue, cold and damp perhaps, but your move to the kitchen didn't help much - though would that be too humid. Is it your sweaty mitts, have you tried other masking tapes?

Not very helpfull, I am afraid, but I haven't had to solve this problem - yet.

cheers

Grant

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I tend to find a thinned coat of spirit based acryillic works for me (tamiya / gunze) have tried specific primers and they are hit and mis at best with the worst one for me being g Vallejo 

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Hi Paul.

Infuriating in the extreme.

Like Mish, I rarely use a primer- see my P-47- no primer whatsoever.

If I am masking, having experienced the occasional problem you describe, due to inconsistent glue strength on other types of masking tape, I ALWAYS use Tamiya tape now.

Also, (I tend to model in the kitchen,) I stick the tape down on the stainless sink top, press it down firmly, and then pull up.  Repeat about 3-5 times, check tackiness with my fingers, and then apply to the model.

Also I have noted that some tapes have a reaction with the thinner in the paint, again, I know where I am with Tamiya tape- worth every single penny.

HTH

 

Rich

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9 hours ago, Grunhertz said:

thinned coat of spirit based acryillic works for me (tamiya / gunze)

Would that be liquid surface primer and lacquer thinner?


I've tried removing the tackiness, Rich, but then I think I take off too much because the paint bleeds
I need some Goldolocks tape....tape that is juuuust right  xD

Do you use enamels?  I don't really want to use them because of the fumes, but am sure they would not have the same problem.  

Have been thinking about both ordering some Tamiya tape and finding an alternative primer.
I switched from Vallejo to Styrenex (?) but the problem remains  so now I have 6 bottles of acrylic primer that loves the tape more than the surface of the model! 
Not a problem though as I can use it on gaming figures where it won't be an issue.

Thanks for all the replies everyone, much appreciated

Edited by Walrus

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23 minutes ago, Walrus said:

Would that be liquid surface primer and lacquer thinner?

Thanks for all the replies everyone, much appreciated

No literally tamiya light grey paint from the jar well thinned it goes on just right and bites nicely. I find masking anything where Vallejo is concerned problematic so much do that Mish now owns all my Vallejo paint. Just me but I just don't get on with it 

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Thanks Grunhertz.
I am going to have to play around with some plastic from the spares box.

I got into Vallejo because my LHS sells it and I was using it primarily for painting figures, for which it works really well.  
And it is really handy when your LHS is only just up the road! 

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On Saturday, December 03, 2016 at 21:24, Walrus said:

Would that be liquid surface primer and lacquer thinner?


I've tried removing the tackiness, Rich, but then I think I take off too much because the paint bleeds
I need some Goldolocks tape....tape that is juuuust right  xD

Do you use enamels?  I don't really want to use them because of the fumes, but am sure they would not have the same problem.  

Have been thinking about both ordering some Tamiya tape and finding an alternative primer.
I switched from Vallejo to Styrenex (?) but the problem remains  so now I have 6 bottles of acrylic primer that loves the tape more than the surface of the model! 
Not a problem though as I can use it on gaming figures where it won't be an issue.

Thanks for all the replies everyone, much appreciated

I pretty much exclusively use enamels. Paint lifting simply isn't an issue with oil based paints with the possible exception of certain unwashed / unprepared resin parts still covered in release agent - but even then it's usually ok.

Spirit based acrylics should bond to the plastic too. I've never had a lifting problem using Tamiya acrylics and similar.

Using water based paints when I first returned to the hobby after some time away was the one of the reason I bought Colourcoats. Some people seem to be able to make them work with various concoctions of additives and providing the planets are correctly aligned etc, but I'm not intelligent enough for such alchemy.

When spraying using a naptha based thinner enamels don't smell any stronger than alcohol based acrylics. I'd argue it's a more pleasant smell than the ammonia stink from some water based paints. It depends whether you prefer the smell of oil paint or a cat's litter tray though!

Thinning with white spirit smells a lot, or cellulose thinner makes things fast but that's definitely a job for good ventilation!

 

Like anything, it's a trade off. Anything hot enough to stick to plastic properly will have a hydrocarbon content and a smell, until someone invents something new.

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8 hours ago, sovereignhobbies said:

Some people seem to be able to make them work with various concoctions of additives and providing the planets are correctly aligned etc,

Dancing naked around an oak tree by the light of a full moon while holding a silver sickle seems to do the trick too.
However, trying to explain oneself to the arresting officer back at the station, solicitor appointments and the impending appearance in front of the magistrate does cut down on one's modelling time.

Thanks for the info :thumbup:

Edited by Walrus
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I mostly use acrylics (I do also use Colourcoats enamels from time to time) and I always use primer before the main top colours. I have stopped using Vallejo, Xtracrylixs and all similar water based acrylics as I had the same problem of paint lifting no matter what I did. I have never had a problem with Tamiya or Mr Color/Hobby lifting or Mr Paint either, these are all hotter acrylics than the Vallejo etc and tend to stick better. For Primer I usually use Mr Surfacer 1200 straight from the rattle can but have used Tamiya's Fine Primer too all with no problems. I have used the Styrenex but didn't like it, same with Alclad's primers but that was more due to the difficulty of cleaning the airbrush afterwards.

Have you tried applying a coat of clear acrylic over each coat of paint before masking for the next coat? That might add a bit of strength to the paint coats but is a bit of a faff. Personally I'd be looking at trying another brand of paint if I were you.

Duncan B

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Get Mr Hobby 1500 surface and Mr Hobby leveling thinners mix 50/50. I like to goe to a 70/30 mix which is very thin. I use the black surfacer for NMF. I swear by this concoction. If there is anything that needs fixing i will show you exactly where. A 50/50 will hide anoyong seaamlines that wont go away. This give an urltra smoth surface abd you can save loads of paint on topcoats. i only use acrylycs.

my 2 cents worths

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Thanks to you both for the feedback.
It has been very helpful :thumbup:

I hate those annoying invisible seam lines that appear as soon as they smell some paint!

Edit:   I have thought about applying Klear between coats.  
Haven't because I suspect that the varnish will bind to the primer, but if the primer doesn't bind sufficiently with the plastic it will still pull off
 

 

Edited by Walrus

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So far I have only used enamel paints.

This is definitely an art which requires, every time, experimentation prior to application.

Paint density and viscosity plays a role. So I experiment with different mix of paint and turps (solvent).

Masking tape with too little sealant/glue allows paint to bleed under the tape.

Paint still softer than the tape glue will stay adhered to the tape when lifting. Paint properly dried (24+ hrs) has less chance of lifting.

If the paint is too thickly applied (density) over the tape edge, lifting will pull too much on the paint, causing it to tear in chunks. Lightly cut along the tape edge with a new scalpel blade helps to severe the paint from the tape.

Applying two coats. The first coat is thinner than normal and needs to be properly dried. Lift tape after second coat has dried. Most broken edges still leave the first coat alone, and often unnoticeable.

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Interesting to read this back again, especially as I have recently had an issue with paint lifting. What was I doing differently from when I made my early reply to this post? I decided to give the Styrenex/Ultimate Primer another go on top of a water based acrylic with the predictable results that even with well de-tacked Tamiya tape and a vinyl paint mask the paint was lifting off, in some cases the paint was lifting away from the primer too.

So this reinforces my own statement about using a different paint, in my case going back to Mr Color, Mr Paint and using Mr Surfacer or Tamiya primers. Stick to what I know (if you'll pardon the pun).

Duncan B

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Afternoon Everyone :) 

Sorry I just read this old topic.

Walrus mentioned everything about painting except one thing: What kind of thinners do you use? 

When I was still building armour full time, I was having the same problem. I was using Vallejo paints, and it wasn't a happy marriage. I was using Tamiya X20A thinners and the paint would clog up the squirter, peel off when I was masking etc etc.... I decided the best idea was to move totally over to Tamiya acrylics and I haven't looked back since :). It might be something as silly as the thinners, but apparently it does happen. As people always say, use the same product line from start to finish. 

I build mostly Cars and Bikes now, and masking is basically a must in every case. Nowadays I lay down the base coat, then a layer of clear, then the masking and another layer of clear etc. I don't use X22 out of the bottle, I use the rattlecans and it works a treat for me. The only issue I have is that I wait 24 hrs between coats. 

Hope this helps in some way 

S

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