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Nobody Significant

My attitude to rivet counting - a personal voyage

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I'm a TLAR builder, it stands for "That Looks About Right" and have hauled in some noble metals at local comp's mostly because the judges were good enough to accept my doughnut bribes...

I personally hate overdone dirt on aircraft, and self proclaimed experts. But it also rankles me when someone claims to be a Master Modeler, then proceeds to put fictional schemes on a well known aircraft, and call it real, and "you prove me wrong", but that is just my opinion.

IPMS Rules is nothing about accuracy anyway, all about technique in assembly and finishing, so that should really be good enough. But alas I digress...

 

 

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The other night, while sitting on our back porch after dinner, with adult beverage in hand, looking at the stars, SWMBO asks me what's worrying me so as I have quite an expression on my face. I laughed and told her it was nothing really, just trying figure out a control panel problem on the 1/72nd Tamiya Zeke I've got on the bench. I told her I don't know why I'm worrying with it since no one besides me will ever see it, or know of the the work, to which she replied, "but you'll know it's there". Yep, that's me, but that's only me. I don't hold others or their models to the standards I have for myself. 

 

I am my own worst critic. 

 

Fun fact: in the reenacting/living history field we didn't have "rivet-counters", we had "stitch-nazis". 9_9  Yep, I was a stitch-nazi too, but then I ran in a pretty rarefied atmosphere few would venture in to when it came to historical portrayals. 

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9 hours ago, dixieflyer said:

... "but you'll know it's there". Yep, that's me, but that's only me. I don't hold others or their models to the standards I have for myself. 

I am my own worst critic. 

I too do stuff that only I'll know is there in the end.  See my Shinkai 6500 submersible in the ships gallery, or any of my TIE Fighters as just some examples....!  I don't know why I bother?  But I do.

But I don't care if they're 100% perfectly accurate, just so long as they "appear" accurate/realistic/insert-your-adjective-here to my eye.

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Sometimes you need to be a rivet counter though. I've judged at local competitions for many years, including Australia's largest scale model competition and many times the competition is just so good, you need to start nit picking a model to work out the winners. That doesn't mean that I can't appreciate and look at all the models in the show though. However I find sometimes you get pinged as a rivet counter by people who don't win. I've had a couple of exchanges with people who's models haven't won and who didn't appreciate me telling them why, even though that was the first thing they asked me! 

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On 05/06/2020 at 20:42, Grunhertz said:

oK I've just binned my Vampire 🙂

 

I’ve seen the movies and they get resurrected all the time. You’ll see it back on the shelf again and again unless you put a stake through the cockpit and burn the remains

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On 05/06/2020 at 21:00, Col. said:

Then he took it to the local motorcycle convention where some 'experts' were ready to form a lynch mob for the hooligan who'd dared to restore the bike "wrong!" and "not to factory standard!" Perhaps there's a case of 'It's My Bloody Motorbike'?

I’ve a proper bike like that - an 80s Somec frame which is handmade steel all silver soldered and exquisitely detailed. 

I’ve “despoiled it” by having it altered to deal with a modern groupset and refinished in non-original colours. Thing is now it gets ridden and is a source of joy and healthy(ish) exercise. I’ll take that over it mouldering in a garage

Edited by Lost Cosmonauts
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3 hours ago, Lost Cosmonauts said:

I’ve a proper bike like that - an 80s Somec frame which is handmade steel all silver soldered and exquisitely detailed. 

I’ve “despoiled it” by having it altered to deal with a modern groupset and refinished in non-original colours. Thing is now it gets ridden and is a source of joy and healthy(ish) exercise. I’ll take that over it mouldering in a garage

Given how much some charge for a steel frame lately in this era of carbon everything I can respect that. The joy of ride quality from a good steel frame matched to the slick shifting and efficient braking convenience imparted with a modern groupset makes for a great bike; something a lot of the fashion-conscious weight-weenies will never appreciate.

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17 minutes ago, Col. said:

Given how much some charge for a steel frame lately in this era of carbon everything I can respect that.

I was really fortunate to get it for a token amount and be able to take it to a local custom frame builder for the mods. Otherwise I’d have been looking at north of £750 to get anything like it

Coaching triathletes I consistently despair over people buying top end bits and things like carbon bottle cages to save a gram or two rather than just putting the work in and maintaining things in good running nick

Edited by Lost Cosmonauts
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5 hours ago, Lost Cosmonauts said:

You’ll see it back on the shelf again and again unless you put a stake through the cockpit and burn the remains

Holy water will do the trick if it's volatile enough
Also, vampires are destroyed by sunlight so if you take it outdoors on a sunny day and expose it to the yellow orb via a magnifying glass.  

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I agree with everthing on here, even the conflicting opinions, because generally I'm easily pleased (TM).  But I'll bet each and every one of you has a particular 'thing' that ascends your nasal orifice.

My particular one is getting the type font right. As a graphic designer for 53 yeas (rtd) I've been using, and have to be able to identify particular typestyles, so I can tell at a glance when somebody has stetched or compressed a font out of its designed parameters. British civil aeroplane registrations in the last 25 years display some of the worst typographical crimes ever commited! (Imagine how annoying a USAF model with serials in a 'face like Times or Palace Script would be.)

Mind you, as much as I hate it on the real thing, If building a model, I'd have to match the horrible typography.

Anyone else got a particular modelling bete noir?

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Yes...

You* build a beautiful model, you throw lots of pe and resin at it, you paint it beautifully....

But you dont remove the mould lines on pieces that are clearly visible....🤷‍♂️

* not you Che Guava obviously 😁

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42 minutes ago, Che Guava said:

But I'll bet each and every one of you has a particular 'thing' that ascends your nasal orifice.

Heavily weathered finishes with bright and sparkly decals. 

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55 minutes ago, Che Guava said:

 But I'll bet each and every one of you has a particular 'thing' that ascends your nasal orifice.

 

i can think of  a few things

seriously over weathered military vehicles..........they just do not get that rusty in use!!!!

something also gets my goat is when you are on a forum and someone joins up and first post is along the lines of 'ive not built a model since i was 12 but heres the first thing ive completed in over 30 years' and they show something that would win a gong at the nationals! and you just want to scream b******t!!!!!!!!

 

 

Edited by beowulf
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1 hour ago, Che Guava said:

Anyone else got a particular modelling bete noir?

I've got 2 pet peeves which i can sometimes struggle not to let them loose:

Sabre airbrakes which stick straight out instead of drooping;

Flight control surfaces at their extremes yet the joystick in the cockpit sticking straight up.

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2 hours ago, Mad Steve said:

Yes...

You* build a beautiful model, you throw lots of pe and resin at it, you paint it beautifully....

But you dont remove the mould lines on pieces that are clearly visible....🤷‍♂️

* not you Che Guava obviously 😁

*But of course, mon ami.   While I am likely to leave the odd mould line 'au naturalle', if you find I've thrown PE and resin at a model, call Ed Straker, because I'll have been abducted and replaced by an alien replicant.

Edited by Che Guava
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I once got into a very “interesting” conversation at the FAA Museum (?) show a few years ago when I put my Australian B47 in the fantasy class in the competition. The official insisted I put it in the aircraft class, which is where it ended up and took a silver.

Regarding rivet counter car club members, the upset caused at my first Series One Club meeting when they discovered I had a red gearstick and not a black one!

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4 minutes ago, Rory said:

Regarding rivet counter car club members, the upset caused at my first Series One Club meeting when they discovered I had a red gearstick and not a black one!

Oh the horror 😬

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I have counted rivets, but not since my apprenticeship, and then it was only because the tradesman didn’t think I was knowledgeable enough to do anything else

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On 04/06/2020 at 12:50, Gorby said:

That's exactly what bugs me. Even on builds that I've stated that I know the colours are wrong – and that I don't care, I've had people point out that the colours are wrong. :wallbash:

This is because Colours are one of the four big biases I see in aircraft modelling: Colours, Weathering, Interiors and Kit Details. Rivet counters do not usually deal in any of these, and having never met a self-described rivet counter face to face (but having met hundreds of modellers deriding them while steadfastly adhering to the above four biases) I can only assume this epithet is applied to a largely fictional boogeyman.

  I am one of the more extreme rivet counters out there, although I never count rivets, and I have never met my own kind except very occasionally online. I for one think the first buildable 1:48th post E Me-109 only appeared with the 2008 Zvezda kits... The first accurate FW-190A with the same year Hasegawa offering. In fact, I think that year marks the arrival of a new generation of more serious 1/48th WWII aircraft kits, and I think the online so called rivet counters are largely to thank for this... 

  As a neophyte judge, I saw first hand the bias towards colour: We were repeatedly told not to judge on accuracy... Yet, when when I placed second a very straight Whirlwind, the first thing I was told was that the colours were wrong... I thought the green was maybe 20% too green, and they wanted to place ahead a croocked P-38 with film showing on almost all stencils... They got their way.

  Similarly, people will now build the laughable HK B-17G despite the immense superiority in all shapes of the old Monogram: Bias towards engraving and detail...

  A heavily weathered model, in my judging experience, will always out-place a clean one, even if far less refined in execution: Bias to weathering... The bias to interiors hardly needs mentioning.

  None of this reflects what I would recognize as “rivet counting”, which, as the term implies, are concerns with external skin shape and overall accuracy. This is because the subtleties of shape, symmetry or dihedral do not impact how spectacular the final outcome ends up being, and so they are relegated to nitpicking. Yet to me shapes require familiarity with the subject, something far more valuable than weathering or painting “bling”...

  In general I found the most forceful proponents of the four biaises are the most prone to agitate the imaginary scarecrow of river counters.

 

Edited by stravinsky444@hotmail.ca
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Me no rivet counter me human. 

(Ok, low brain power used up) 

I make models to basic historical accuracy, and then add some touches of my own (like painting towing eyes red, something the Indian Army does a lot). 

Also, since aftermarket stuff is hard to come by, if the kit looks close enough, I am satisfied

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Its strange you say that about weathering and judging because I tend to find at Telford heavily weathered aircraft don't tend to place 

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Not being an aircraft modeller, when looking at completed models in mags or on the internet, my eye is alway drawn to the unweathered/lightly done kits than the heavily done stuff, the same with AFV's. To me, and just my own opinion, is that they haven't captured that 'realism' I much prefer the cleaner look. 

I am not a fan of current weathering trends, its as if people are building kits to look a certain way, not what they probably should look like. 

Believe me, i have had bags full of PMs from people for having said this over the years, and i just dont bother with them anymore.  Its about building what you want, not what other people think. 99% of those models will sit in someones cabinet and never see the outside world, but makes the owner more than happy with what they have built. 

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