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Different timings.

The blue P-47’s were  predominantly ‘M’ models and relatively late to equip the 56th fighter group. 

Lou IV was an early P-51D so Likely came on charge around May 1944.

I think the thought is that both may have used RAF paint stocks...

 

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to me the answer is very simple.   One just uses the green of ones choice (can of worms,) and then adds a very small amount of blue- just enough to give the same effect as one sees in the photographs.  How difficult can that actually be?

To be honest I am past trying to argue certain things.  My pet peeve is the P-47 side window thing.  From studying both b/w and colour photos, it is patently obvious that for exactly the same reason the P-51 appears blue, the P-47 panels appear a different colour- basically, because in truth they actually are.  However, pedants, purists and AS people cannot abide the thought of anything being outside of the rules, and will put forward argument after painful argument as to why there could be no shift in rigid doctrine.  Anyone who has ever built anything, knows that that things go wrong, parts etc aren't available when needed,  manuals are misinterpreted, and sometimes it's just down to plain individuality.

I completely agree with Paul that there is some filter effect going on with the film, and I would also add that this is only happening to the newly applied paint and not the original o.d, because there is more blue in the mix of the new paint- which (for reasons I am not familiar with- knowing zip bout photography, light spectrums, radiation etc) is presenting itself in the finished image.

I would also liek to add, that although Dana has done a great job, he is dealing with transparencies that have been reproduced so many times, and quite often the whole green area looks blue.   

Edited by Mentalguru

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On 2/2/2018 at 3:43 AM, Gadfly said:

If you want 32nd scale decals let me know I’m not going to use my Revell Lou IV decals 

Thanks Gadfly, I appreciate the offer, but I am more of a 1/72 builder.^_^

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On ‎02‎/‎02‎/‎2018 at 23:24, clifft said:

I would very much be interested in reading some of that - as I'd probably be one of those people making that mistake!  I would not want to hijack this thread, but would you be willing to start another or to PM me?  I'd appreciate it.

Sure thing:

 

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On ‎03‎/‎02‎/‎2018 at 10:28, Miggers said:

Well,whatever it is in that shot Cliff,I'd say it isn't faded O/D,I studied loads of faded O/D to do an RAF Dakota(now this lot'll be on my back to put up some pics of it).

It does certainly appear to have a blue tinge to it,but it's darker than the star'n'bar's blue.

Whatever is on the top of the fin and rudder looks like RAF Dark Green.

 

Coincidentally, ANA613 Olive Drab which should have replaced Olive Drab 41 and Army Spec 319 (I think... working from memory) and thus would be the colour present on a USAAF P-51D in 1944 was close enough to RAF Dark Green that the Ministry of Aircraft Production accepted it as the substitute US Equivalent colour for Dark Green to be used on US built aircraft for the RAF, such as the Mustang III and IV. It happened to be one of the worst controlled colours in the recent history of the US military by most accounts, but the standard it was supposed to match is indeed fairly similar as RAF Dark Green. Indeed a great many model paint manufacturers decide on behalf of their customers that ANA613's successor, FS34079, is the colour they need for all 3 purposes and happily package up FS34079 in attractive boxes for RAF, USAAF and USAF coloursets alike.

ANA613 Olive Drab                                                                                   ACUS12rgb_1024x1024.jpg?v=1482603103

M.A.P. RAF Dark Green (very slightly different from BS381C-241 Dark Green) ACRN09rgb_1024x1024.jpg?v=1492341074

FS34079                                                                                                 ACUS20_2f97d631-0244-453e-9cf8-9951ff29c

 

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Personally I would disregard the photos, the print filtration looks all wrong, it has a distinct blue cast that could be down to a number of factors. Plus when you read this:

 

Quote

Spotters who visited the unit at that time noted that many of the aircraft were painted with blue on the upper surfaces; years later, unit veterans disputed that claim, insisting that all the aircraft were painted Olive Drab.

 

The italics are mine. I realise that Dana Bell takes the view that the vets were suffering with faulty memory (years later), but my money is with the vets and this despite the fact that my heart wishes the P-51's really were blue. This reminds me of the 56th FG P-47M's that were supposedly painted with plum/dark purple uppers. I know someone with sufficient interest in the 56th to have co-authored a book about them. Over the years he has spoken with many vets, ground crews and pilots, when asked about the plum/dark purple theory they all came back with the same answer. The Jugs had black uppers.

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6 hours ago, Michelle Edwards said:

Of for a time machine and a digital camera 😀

Then the debate would be on the white balance of the camera - i'll solve it, they were Pink mustangs

That will ensure unity, as everyone will agree i'm wrong :-)

Edited by Peter Marshall
  • Haha 5

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Hi folks.

I've corresponded with Dana a number of times over matters of colour and finish, as they've pertained to P-51s. What sets Dana apart from at least a simple majority of modellers is a dedication to objective fact, a very thorough knowledge of the subject matters that interest him and the studious avoidance of supposition. If he doesn't know or can't be sure, he'll make that plain and yes, he is one of the foremost aviation researchers in the US, if not the world.

I wrote a short skit on Hyperscale about 15 years ago about interpreting photographs in books literally for reasons of modelling accuracy. This, from the perspective of a professional photographer of (then) some 20 years standing. It was well received and there was consequential recognition that a printed image could easily be a 5th or 6th generation removed from the source material, itself potentially subject to incorrect exposure, development and so forth. I explained that (with a 5th generation copy) you are faced with an interpretation, of an interpretation, of an interpretation, of an interpretation, of an interpretation...that many all to often routinely examine as contemporaneous 'fact', without consideration of this and various other factors in arriving at conclusions.  

That's not what's under debate in Dana's piece though. His primary source is an original 70+ year old 5"x 4" Kodachrome transparency. Kodachrome is (was) not a 'standard' transparency film. It was not something suitable for home processing, as Kodak had created what they called the 'K process' (the precise nomenclature changed over time, the last being 'K-14M' I believe) to take latent exposures to finished transparencies in some 17 separate stages. The key thing here to bear in mind with Kodachrome, in this context, is it is widely regarded as the 'gold standard' in transparency film for archival stability. From a pure image rendering slant, sharpness and colour rendition were second to none and I've used it many times.

So, for clarity, Dana examined the original transparency and saw blue. I concur with his findings entirely and can clearly see 'green' on the fin top and rudder base of 'LOU IV' and the adjacent blue. The 'whys' and 'for how long' the blue was present are interesting but peripheral questions to the main event.

K-2487 depicts the four Mustangs cruising above the cloud base on a bright, sunny day. The shadow cast under the tail plane of 'LOU IV' is at a sharp angle, indicating the sun is high overhead, not low in the sky (which would suggest early morning, late evening). Time of day therefore is somewhere straddling midday. Kodachrome, a daylight balance film, was produced to provide a neutral colour balance of 5,500 degrees Kelvin in the northern hemisphere at midday. The colour bias of light varies from towards the blue end of the electromagnetic spectrum early morning, to the red end at the end of the day (recalling fiery sunsets and so on). The aircraft, being above the cloud base (that would filter some UV) are subject to full intensity of UV that sits at the blue end of the spectrum. The image has quite a 'cold' appearance (consistent with my comments above). That is not to suggest that what was green, now appears 'blue'. The fin of 'LOU IV' has two patches of green and the adjacent blue is clear and distinct. The two colours lie in the same plane, receive the same light yet are different. Incidentally, I have my eyes tested regularly and I have no abnormalities or deficiencies in my colour vision.

Despite all this, for the record, I have written to Eastman Kodak USA to bring this matter to their attention to see if their technical division will weigh in. As an aside, as I'm sure many know, if you spot a colour you like on a cushion for instance, you can go into one of any number of DIY stores with a suitable colour analyser, to have paint mixed for domestic use. I'll go out on a limb and be pretty sure Kodak have the wherewithal to do the same. Whether they'll bite remains to be seen but I'll report in either event.

In the mean time, Dana accepts (as he always has done) that his findings on any topic will never be universally accepted but on a personal level, when it comes to making a decision on something he's researched, I'm always happy to pin my colours to the particular mast he deems appropriate.  

 

TTFN

 

Steve  

        

      

  

 

Edited by Steve Budd
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11 hours ago, Grunhertz said:

I wait with baited breath Steve, in the meantime well I'm going to build a model.

Gooo-on lad.

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