Jump to content

Recommended Posts

I've seen the name before not sure who he? Is but it's quite a convincing argument all I will say is whatever colour you paint it it's your model 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He's someone who engages in primary research (i.e. actually looks at source materials), specifically around colours normally and then seems to generate a significant amount of 'discord/noise' on the internet. Not his fault.

He's written a couple of books on the subject.

Personally with my historian hat on, I like his work - it's generally well reasoned and researched.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dana Bell is one of the foremost authorities on US aviation colour, for example his treatise on Olive Drab is generally accepted as definitive. He's also done quite a bit on US aircraft supplied to the UK, explaining US paints used as MAP equivalents. The 'blue' P-51s question is one that will rumble on, personally I'd be happy to do my Revell P-51D as Lou IV with blue uppers, because it looks cool. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, Darren said:

I always thought with a name like Dana he was a she! Oops 

You were closer than me Daz 
I always thought Dana Bell was a five and dime that served tacos.  



 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Paul Brown said:

Dana Bell is one of the foremost authorities on US aviation colour, for example his treatise on Olive Drab is generally accepted as definitive. He's also done quite a bit on US aircraft supplied to the UK, explaining US paints used as MAP equivalents. The 'blue' P-51s question is one that will rumble on, personally I'd be happy to do my Revell P-51D as Lou IV with blue uppers, because it looks cool. 

Paul and Peter are bang on there,Dana Bell's research is indeed very good and well regarded.

4 hours ago, Walrus said:

You were closer than me Daz 
I always thought Dana Bell was a five and dime that served tacos.  



 

You mean this silly lads:

https://www.tacobell.com/

Edited by Miggers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I tend to look at Lou IV this way...

At some point in Early June 1944 but before the 6th Lou IV has its Special Markings Applied.

At Some Point in Early July The 8th AF begin Removing Special Markings on upper surfaces. Lou IV has its upper Stripes over painted.

Around the 26th July the ‘Bottisham 4’ photo is taken by the 91st Bombardment Group.

12 August Lou IV is shot down attacking the railway yards at Arras.

Thus the Blue / Green question is only pertinent for a relatively short period of Lou IV’s operational life..

You could easily build the new Revell kit as Lou IV in the period prior to Early July 1944 and have an interesting Model.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I still can't see any blue paint on those Mustangs. What I 'see' is a faded and patched olive drab with reflections from the sky above providing a hint of blue.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don’t disagree. But the fading and patching to any colour applied to cover the stripes would have had to have taken place over 20 or so days.. it would be interesting to know when 44-13410 was taken on charge by the 361st.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Col. said:

I still can't see any blue paint on those Mustangs. What I 'see' is a faded and patched olive drab with reflections from the sky above providing a hint of blue.

To be fair,nor can I. There is blue on the star and bar,but nothing around it looks even remotely blue,but then again ( and studied this for my Dak)it doesn't look like any Olive Drab, British green or it's Du Pont equivalent maybe,but certainly not blue....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, Miggers said:

To be fair,nor can I. There is blue on the star and bar,but nothing around it looks even remotely blue,but then again ( and studied this for my Dak)it doesn't look like any Olive Drab, British green or it's Du Pont equivalent maybe,but certainly not blue....

I wonder if a combination of the film types and the light effects at high altitude are affecting what we see in the photos?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Col. said:

I wonder if a combination of the film types and the light effects at high altitude are affecting what we see in the photos?

I can just see the photographer now thinking. If I take this now then in 70+ years people are going to be saying that green mustang is blue! 😀

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/31/2018 at 2:54 PM, Col. said:

I still can't see any blue paint on those Mustangs. What I 'see' is a faded and patched olive drab with reflections from the sky above providing a hint of blue.

I would lean towards disagreeing with you and Miggers.  In this picture, I can see the blue, in particular on the fuselage:

1C%20-%20P-51%20-%20361%20FG%20-%20K-2487%20-%20detail.jpg

On the bare metal areas of the fuselage (below cockpit for example) I also can see what you are referring to as reflections from the sky above.

To my eye, the blue, particular along the spine around the US insignia and C, looks to my eye to be a dark, almost flat blue.  Perhaps something in the neighborhood of Tamiya's XF-8:

Image result for tamiya flat blue

Either way, this is certainly an interesting topic to discuss and has me re-considering picking up a decal sheet with markings for this particular P-51!  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As above Dana Bell is a primary source researcher, not a regurgitator of other peoples' work nor just a contrary saying stupid things based on very flaky references. Dana gave me a lot of valuable information about the interior colours of many US WW2 types which is probably more a curse than a blessing as it makes me want to scratch my eyes these days when I see everything painted ANA611 US Interior Green xD

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, sovereignhobbies said:

As above Dana Bell is a primary source researcher, not a regurgitator of other peoples' work nor just a contrary saying stupid things based on very flaky references. Dana gave me a lot of valuable information about the interior colours of many US WW2 types which is probably more a curse than a blessing as it makes me want to scratch my eyes these days when I see everything painted ANA611 US Interior Green xD

 

I would very much be interested in reading some of that - as I'd probably be one of those people making that mistake!  I would not want to hijack this thread, but would you be willing to start another or to PM me?  I'd appreciate it.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 02/02/2018 at 07:51, clifft said:

I would lean towards disagreeing with you and Miggers.  In this picture, I can see the blue, in particular on the fuselage:

1C%20-%20P-51%20-%20361%20FG%20-%20K-2487%20-%20detail.jpg

On the bare metal areas of the fuselage (below cockpit for example) I also can see what you are referring to as reflections from the sky above.

To my eye, the blue, particular along the spine around the US insignia and C, looks to my eye to be a dark, almost flat blue.  Perhaps something in the neighborhood of Tamiya's XF-8:

Image result for tamiya flat blue

Either way, this is certainly an interesting topic to discuss and has me re-considering picking up a decal sheet with markings for this particular P-51!  

Well,whatever it is in that shot Cliff,I'd say it isn't faded O/D,I studied loads of faded O/D to do an RAF Dakota(now this lot'll be on my back to put up some pics of it).

It does certainly appear to have a blue tinge to it,but it's darker than the star'n'bar's blue.

Whatever is on the top of the fin and rudder looks like RAF Dark Green.

Edited by Miggers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not trying to discredit Dana Bell's credentials or belittle his reputation as a historian. At the same time, however, I'm not prepared to take everything he says as gospel without question. The question I always find coming to my mind on this matter is why would someone in the USAAF feel the need to paint some bits on a handfull of Mustangs blue? Were they at some point so short of paint they need to scrounge some from RAF or Fleet Air Arm or US Navy stock and if so would they really pick a tin of blue? If it was an official idea why isn't there documents to support it? Everything happens for a reason and while the reasons sometimes can be obscure I can't think of a reason why a small number of Mustangs needed some bits painted blue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Col. said:

I'm not trying to discredit Dana Bell's credentials or belittle his reputation as a historian. At the same time, however, I'm not prepared to take everything he says as gospel without question.

That’s a perfectly fair and legit attitude to take. My own view is that something appears to be amiss with the filtration of the prints on those Mustang pics.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Miggers said:

 

Whatever is on the top of the fin and rudder looks like RAF Dark Green.

I think the contention is that there are two colours involved a ‘blue’ which is covering the D Day stripes on the upper rear fuselage  and presumeably the upper wing and a green which is applied to the tail.

I think the general thought is that the stripes were over painted in the blue around the time the 8th AF decided to ditch the ‘Special Markings’  on upper surfaces which is early July 44 

Lou IV then had the green Camo added and presumeably the full yellow cowl at some point between then and the date of the Bottisham 4 Photo.

So I guess you have a few scenarios. 

1. The stripes overpainting and camo happened at the same time.

2. The stripes were over painted and then the camo was added a bit later.

Who knows for sure...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Given how random and unconventional the paint schemes are, it could be that that non-standard paints were used too.
Despite the vast wealth of resources available to the USAAF, I'm not sure that tins of paint would be the highest priority for logistics in theatre.

I'm not suggesting you are wrong Col, because I haven't a clue.
Just saying that it is possible and I understand your reluctance to accept the use of blue paint without conclusive evidence is reasonable.

I'd go with the blue because it would be pretty! xD

Edited by Walrus
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Although not a P-51, but what about the P-47D/M Thunderbolts that were painted in a blue camouflage?  Haven't those been well documented?  Could it possibly be that the P-51s here took a page from those blue P-47s?  Just a thought. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×